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Greetings. I am a man of science and a fighter for equality. Being a lover of history, it didn't take me long to see the wonders Islam brought to a dark time for humanity. Islam strongly believed in not allowing faith to interfere with scientific progress, and that all are equal. From my intense studies recently, I've realized that in many regions such philosophy has been erased and replaced with fundamentalism. Sexism, homophobia, and hatred toward other religions has become a common trait of Muslims. I find this religion beautiful and the culture it came from intriguing. Though a huge skeptic, I think Islam has the potential to become a progressive and accepting religion. So, my question is: As a fighter for gay rights (I myself am not gay), women's rights, and peace between all people no matter what - would you accept me as a fellow Muslim?

asked 4411138 UnknownUser's gravatar image
closed Aug 04 '13 at 05:14 sadie ♦ 1.6k313 sadie's gravatar image

The question has been closed for the following reason "The question is answered, right answer was accepted" by sadie Aug 04 '13 at 05:14

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@Locke to answer your question, can I accept you as fellow muslim? The answer is no and my reason is because your veiws are unislamic, for Allah azza wal jall has said in th qur'an, " And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are kafirun (disbelievers) of a lesser degree as they donot act on Allah's laws." (Sura 5:44) So if you choose to fight for gay rights, so be it, to you be your way and to me be mine. There is no debate about that, I agree that being gay has much to do with genetics but choice is do to the indiviual, for every man genetically has woman in him do to the x chromosome, so if genetics is the key factor to the outcome then every man should be gay, but we're not and that is by choice, and Allah being Adl (just) judges the intentions which sires choice. Also, you have stated that Allah is not perfect which is perfection and I agree with you but not for the resons you gave. I agree from what the qur'an has stated many times and that being, NOTHING IN CREATION IS LIKE ME, HIGH ABOVE IS ALLAH THAN THAT WHICH THEY ATTRIBUTED TO HIM, so now I must ask where does perfection exist? The answer to this is within creation and the fact that Allah has specified that nothing in creation is like the creator then perfection can not be such for Allah is high above that and creation is not the creator, creation is something the creator did, thus seperating Himself from the action. You being a

sciencitist can not refute the fact that by definition there are systems in place within creation that are perfect, one being your make up, and you also know The laws of opposites for Allah in His Hikmah (wisdom) has made opposites in creation to keep the balance, thus making Allah the source of perfection and imperfection within His creation. But Allah is neither for He is high above what is attributed to Him. Last but not least you asked what is wrong with being gay? Everything for Allah has said such are the worst in creation, and that is enough for me, and if it is not for you I understand why, for Allah has stated," whether you warn them or warn them not, they will not believe for Allah has placed a seal on their hearts." May Allah guide and protect the believer's! Slaam

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answered 765829 yaqin's gravatar image

@yaqin: Sorry I didn't notice your answer, my bad. I feel that much of your answers were already countered in my debate with mans_med, so this'll be brief. First, that's not how genetics works. Only small details and combinations of cellular structures get passed on indefinitely, that's why if someone has black hair and has a baby with someone who has blond hair the result will likely be brown. Also, this will not continue because of the new, random, and strong biological details being bombarded onto a fetus. Often enough what happens is that after many kids being born once or piled up through generations, the female body starts to become accustomed to the baby and try to make it like the female. The defenses of the female body continuously try make the boy assimilate female biological qualities. The exact opposite (lesbians) occur when the body rejects assimilation and makes the girl too late more like a male. Furthermore, as I've said: perfection is not a system of measurement or scaling by the scientific method, but that of personal or group interpretation. The factors of the measuring of perfection don't matter because it's all opinion that can't be proven to go in any absolute direction of thought.

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answered 4411138 UnknownUser's gravatar image

You are correct to think you misunderstand me. I do not trust absolutes from the mere word of a human being, even if it be a supposedly memorized verse. So, it pains me to say it but that kind and smart man Muhammad (peace be upon him) could very well have made a mistake and/or those around him did. Also, there is the theological study of metaphor in the Quran itself and the prophets' own possible interpretation of Allah's message. I mean, according to Islam we humans already screwed everything up twice! Your welcome concerning the biological terming and of other things (I myself study evolutionary biology and as I said my family taught me much of all things related to biology). Anal sex can either be harmless or deadly harmful depending on what occurs down to detail, and once again the only case that can be made against homosexual intercourse in this manner is fluid transfer; though this can be easily solved through the use of a condom. Honestly, I think it's gross, but I'm not going to interfere with peoples lives simply because it appalls me. That's not fair, for it takes way people's freedom. I believe that most Muslim doctors who don't allow homosexual intercourse are either not willing to do further studying, or simply deny everything. (Shrug) Just another bump in the road. I'm an extremely confident individual, so ill be good.

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answered 4411138 UnknownUser's gravatar image

Well everything belongs to Allah. This world , your money, science, creation, animals, atoms, molecules , Everything. So He and he alone has the right to say what is and what isn't. And for anyone to deny that , and support someone who goes against it harms their self and the other person. Because that's not truly loving or caring for a person. When you really love and care you want and make example of what is good for them ONLY. Whether they like it or not. If you live your life just accepting whatever may come along , and have no foundation of truth, you never know the real love. Salam

(Aug 04 '13 at 01:58) sadie ♦ sadie's gravatar image

I have my universal codes on ethics and other forms of reasoning, so no I'm not going to spend my entire life letting people do whatever they want until anarchy ensues. Whenever science tells me that I or someone else has been wrong, then I go to action spreading this new look on things. The reason for that is because I care for humanity, and I don't a world stuck in the dark ages. People's freedoms and science are the two most important things in my life. Tied for second place are my own well being and my theology. I founded my own political movement for equality, progressiveness, and freedom

(Aug 04 '13 at 02:17) UnknownUser UnknownUser's gravatar image

@Locke:

This is the case, that holy texts through the mistakes of people can be dead wrong. Them saying that their word can never be doubted I think, is hypocritical and meaningless. I apologize deeply for saying such things, but it is my view on the matter.

I am not sure if I've understood you correctly here, but if you are referring to the Quran, I must say that, its verses were NOT created by humans. The Quran clearly states that, it is the guiding message of Allah(swt), sent orally as bits and pieces of messages to prophet Mohammed(may peace be upon him), through the archangel Jibra'il (angel Gabriel). These messages were then orally but precisely recited by the prophet to his followers, who in turn recorded his EXACT words in whatever form possible (including precise memorization by just hearing it and practicing it over and over). It was during the time of the caliphates that such recorded pieces were restructured and grouped into a single book (but no verses were edited or ignored), that we now know as 'The Holy Quran'. (And as a historian, I hope u already know all this stuff, probably better than me ^_^ ) So as part of acceptance of Islamic faith, we Muslims have to, and by free-will, would always believe, that Allah's words cannot be doubted.

Though, I must disagree with your ideas of homosexuality. My mother is a biologist, and my uncle is a distinguished doctor and lecturer; they agree that homosexual action by itself is not a cause for any psychological or physical problems. STI's (they're infections, not diseases - that terming was recently discarded because of recent discoveries) are usually caused by fluid exchange by genitals, and such occurrences are common for all sexual orientations. At times when not using a condom gay men are more endangered because sperm exchange would be hard to stop.

I thank you deeply for correcting the terminology (STI not STD) and enlightening me in this regard. And yes you are indeed correct, several STI spread even among people with a heterosexual orientation, but that possibility is significantly reduced through monogamous relationships ( And this can be entirely another topic unto itself).

But I simply want to say that, there are authentic hadiths (atleast in muslims' point of view) that forbid anal intercourse even between a lawfully married, monogamous husband and wife (even with a condom). So, obviously there is a solid reason behind this, which, sadly, I cannot explain to you with my limited medical/biological knowledge. (Maybe other Muslim brothers who are doctors can help me in this regard??)

It saddens me to see that will not accept me. :(

Brother, there is no need to be sad that I, or any other Muslim or non-Muslim brothers do not accept you as a Muslim. The ultimate goal of humans and jinn alike is to submit to Allah and pass in His judgement as a person worthy of entry into paradise.

So, I sincerely advice you to be good, honest, kind and a lead life of patience. For Allah loves those qualities very much and it is His ultimate judgement to let you into paradise based on your actions and thoughts and more importantly faith.

And never give up your search for truth, nor hesitate to ask help and guidance from the Supreme Being that created us. Even if no one accepts you as a Muslim, remember.. humans' decisions are worth nothing at all, compared to that of Allah(swt).

salam.

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answered 4411138 UnknownUser's gravatar image

Your first point is in a way correct, for yes there are contradicting stories due to lack of geological or archeological evidence and that of who's writing down what occurred. Though that only further proves my point. If we find a city that was destroyed and all the details add up, there's a great chance that the evidence will point to random weather or an earthquake. Thus, making deception from an ignorant and misplaced author another bump in the road for believers. This is the case, that holy texts through the mistakes of people can be dead wrong. Them saying that their word can never be doubted I think, is hypocritical and meaningless. I apologize deeply for saying such things, but it is my view on the matter. Also, I am sorry if at any time I've offended anyone. Okay, back on track. I am very pleased to see that you believe in equality for all! It is clear that you are a good person, and a person of progress and acceptance. Though, I must disagree with your ideas of homosexuality. My mother is a biologist, and my uncle is a distinguished doctor and lecturer; they agree that homosexual action by itself is not a cause for any psychological or physical problems. STI's (they're infections, not diseases - that terming was recently discarded because of recent discoveries) are usually caused by fluid exchange by genitals, and such occurrences are common for all sexual orientations. At times when not using a condom gay men are more endangered because sperm exchange would be hard to stop. I guess you are technically correct about not knowing what happens in the afterlife, but I think their successes and satisfying lives gives me the edge in the argument. It saddens me to see that will not accept me. :(

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answered 4411138 UnknownUser's gravatar image

@Locke: First of all let me apologize to you and other members for veering off the actual question and turning it to a discussion rather than a question/answer format. If you wish, you are most welcome to continue this conversation at the COMMUNITY site of islam.com.

But I would certainly like to summarize my views in this post for one last time. (Once again apologies for this long post)

@Locke said, and I answer some of his views....

There are writings and archeological evidence that can give us detailed descriptions of events thousands of years, even millions with new carbon dating tech.

But then, there are details of several other historical events (including events that may be just a few hundred years old) that cannot be proven/described neither by current technology nor by historical writings, at all..

Therefore, if the event did take place then we'll find it within the next fifty years, thus confirmed it. Until then I must treat it like metaphorical folk lore.

In which case, I wish you luck in finding those answers within your lifetime. May Allah(swt) guide you in your quest!

Faith for me goes to much of religion and definitely into a belief in a higher power, but much of what religion brings needs to be confirmed or discarded based on evidence.

I am sorry, but, I can only quote you the Quran in this regard..

“Verily We have revealed the Book to thee in Truth, for (instructing) mankind. He, then, that receives guidance benefits his own soul: but he that strays injures his own soul. Nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs.” Al-Quran (Chapter 39, Verse 41)

Furthermore, I don't know what's wrong with being gay? Please explain.

Being gay at heart may not be THE problem, but acting upon gay desires does result in many physical and psychological problems, including, but not limited to, increased possibility of Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs), physical injuries to internal organs, to mention a few.

Also, think of great people who were gay or bisexual in history; Alexander the Great, Augustus of Rome, and Leonidas of Spartan. These men achieved great things, were moral and brilliant, and they all apparently escaped Allah's wrath.

That maybe the case in our point of view, but no one can confirm that they escaped Allah's wrath except Allah Himself. (Afterlife.. judgement day.. remember??)

Also, there's nothing wrong with being blind and it is not a condition that's solutions come from cultural assimilation. With blind people you don't scream at them to get some better eyes, you bring them into society so that can be equal through change. For example, a blind person can get a seeing eye dog or have someone help them go through life. It's helping them to become everyones equal once more.

Surely, there is nothing wrong with being blind. And we do bring them into society with help from various quarters. I only suggest that, there are similar ways to help and accept gay people as normal. It maybe through marriage with the opposite sex, or leading a single life, or through medical counseling and so on, rather than screaming at them to straighten up their sexual orientation.

And I strongly oppose discriminating against any person just because of their birth characteristics. Gay or not, ALL HUMANS DESERVE TO BE TREATED EQUALLY.

And finally, to answer the question of @Locke:

So, my question is: As a fighter for gay rights (I myself am not gay), women's rights, and peace between all people no matter what - would you accept me as a fellow Muslim?

I agree with @sadie and quote his answer,

I personally would not. And I will tell you why. A Muslim is someone who submits his/her whole self to Allah. This means following his laws. Forbidding what is forbidden and implement what is lawful. Not following our own ignorant desires. Or man made laws. Do you see the difference? You can't have both. Choose Allah or choose this worldly way.

Salam.

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answered 4411138 UnknownUser's gravatar image
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Furthermore, I don't know what's wrong with being gay? Please explain. Also, there's nothing wrong with being blind and it is not a condition that's solutions come from cultural assimilation. With blind people you don't scream at them to get some better eyes, you bring them into society so that can be equal through change. For example, a blind person can get a seeing eye dog or have someone help them go through life. It's helping them to become everyones equal once more. So, with gay people you just allow their lifestyle into society while helping them by quieting bigots with science. Gay people don't as a whole harm anyone (there's pedos and rapists, but those exist also with heterosexuals), and it's just sexual orientation; you can't force someone to change that, plus the population is way too large anyway.

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answered 4411138 UnknownUser's gravatar image

@mans_med: There are writings and archeological evidence that can give us detailed descriptions of events thousands of years, even millions with new carbon dating tech. Therefore, if the event did take place then we'll find it within the next fifty years, thus confirmed it. Until then I must treat it like metaphorical folk lore. Since my lack of faith in humanity has me always doubting scripture, at the moment my belief is that Allah created the particles that started the big bang. I believe Adam and Eve were real people, but not the first humans on the earth let alone the first organisms. The Quran does indeed give a clear cut telling of the universe's beginnings, but so do many books. Faith for me goes to much of religion and definitely into a belief in a higher power, but much of what religion brings needs to be confirmed or discarded based on evidence.

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answered 4411138 UnknownUser's gravatar image
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Most American and Canadian Research Centers and Health Organizations agree that homosexuality is neither a disease nor a choice. Recent breakthroughs have shown that genes and hormones determine sexual orientation, and that all processes that lead to a gay child's birth are almost exactly the same as that of one's dominant arm.

I agree. it is neither a disease nor a choice.

But, just because a person is BORN that way doesn't justify LIVING up to those intentions. People are born BLIND, it doesn't mean they have to sit in a corner and sulk, they go against it and lead normal lives, similarly, we can either fight against gay intentions or atleast just stay away from it rather than succumb to such intentions.

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answered 4411138 UnknownUser's gravatar image
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Allah creates everyone in a state of fitrah. Meaning pure and without sin, and an instinct between right and wrong. Salam

(Aug 02 '13 at 01:05) sadie ♦ sadie's gravatar image

Allah does create everyone in a state of fitrah, that is until He blows life to the embryo. But, from the moment Allah provides the soul to the embryo, the child is as vulnerable as any living adult. The soul in the womb, hears and experiences and imbibes everything the mother takes in, including the events(happy or traumatic) that surrounds her and the food/medicines consumed by her. So, is there not a possibility for a child to be corrupt even while in the womb?

I really am curious in this regard. Any enlightening answer would be most welcome!

(Aug 02 '13 at 17:27) UnknownUser UnknownUser's gravatar image

The story of Lot is a story based around faith, not confirmed, and therefore does not count as fact. Sadly, as a skeptic and scientist I must rely on hard evidence to make any sort of decision or theory. So, to solve the problem I had to look at evidence from confirmed historical events and today's studies.

Alas! my dear brother, The Earth isn't like a digital device where every little action can be recorded and stored safely by default and traced back whenever needed... The earth itself, along with the people in it, undergo severe physical changes over time. What were FACTS once, can become nothing more than FOLKLORE and vice-versa.

And, how can we even begin to understand all the discussions under this topic, if it is "clear cut historical and factual evidence" that can prove it you?? After all, the very creation of Man and the universe is still a highly discussed 'theory' among scientists, whereas the Quran clearly states that Allah(swt) has created us. This notion of creation can be accepted, ONLY if a person has faith in Allah and His Quran. Similarly, the story of Lot can also be accepted, ONLY if you have faith in Quran and its teachings. (The least you can check for proof of prophet Lot is that, he is mentioned in other religious scriptures as well, but as a muslim, i believe only the Quran's version is the final and proper story).

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answered 4411138 UnknownUser's gravatar image

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Asked: Aug 01 '13 at 01:17

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Last updated: Aug 04 '13 at 05:14


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