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Most religions including Islam believes that God creating everything. So now that we know that God created everything other than himself, lets talk about humans. God created humans then he gave them freewill. So what's a human without free will. A human is a system that perform different functions. All of these functions were designed or created by God and they will work exactly the way God designed them. I guess this is understood everyone would agree. Now the free will, free will is a system created or designed by God, which will work exactly the way God designed it, agreed i think. Now lets combine both of these things together what do we have a system with different functions designed by God, which will work exactly the way God designed them. So human being with free will is a system which was created by God and will work exactly the way God created it. Correct me if I missed anything but if you agree with above statements, then you can't be responsible for anything. God is responsible for everything you do.

Well brother I asked a question which will help me to understand. Salaam

answered 8331147 yaqin's gravatar image

you need to listen to an example, hopefully it will help you to get the idea close to your mind.

Assume that there is a king who willed to offer an offer called "the Trust" to the people in his kingdom to find out who is trustful and who is not. Without forcing it on them, but just an offer take it or leave it.. But if you take it then be responsible of the result. the trustful will be rewarded to live in the palace and gardens of the king.. and the non-trustful will be punished. The king do not need any benefit from his people but he want his people to benefit from him and his generosity/gifts. And before the game/exam/competition start, the king gave each one some money and clothes and food and transportation and map and told them to use these bounties to come to him(to his Palace).. and if you use it correctly to come to me, I will give you more from my bounties/gifts.. and if you waist it without coming to me then one day my soldiers will arrest you and you will be returned to me and will put you into death.

The game/deal started and at the end the people will be on four kinds; 1. Most close people to the king granted his nearness as the elite 2. dwellers of the gardens of the king granted to them because of his kindness 3. Prisoned people that one day they will be out of prison and live in the gardens 4. Criminal people who deserve the death penalty because of the king's justice/fairness.

The King is Allah and the people are us/human and the map is the Quran/religion/instruction/manual for our optimum result and the money, transportation, food, clothes are like the body, the spirit, the brain, the heart, the five senses(including hearing and seeing) and the health ... etcetera The criminals are the one who were arrogant and thought that they can escape from the king's kingdom not only but also they draw fake/wrong map to the king's palace to misguide people to a wrong path because they do not want to be the only losers. and the prisoners are the ones who lost the map/way given by the king and thought they can arrive without it and/or were not very serious in guarding it, but inside them there was at least an atom weight of good/belief intending the king.. and the 2nd class of people are the ones who went to the king but not from the shortest way they spend most of the money and time in enjoying the trip and used few of it to go to the king (may be sold the car and took a bus, lol:)) and then the 1st class people or the elite are the ones who went to the shortest way to the king and overcome any obstacles on the way, their target in front of their eyes was nothing but the king.. they did not see/look to anything else they were not even looking for his gardens but they wanted the generous king himself. they are the most smart and most successful they knew from the beginning that being with the one who gives the gifts is better and not compared with being with just the gifts.

(may Allah let us be from the 1st class people, sincerely/purely to His face of Jalal/majesty and ikram/generosity)

answered 387116 inclined2truth's gravatar image

OK here is the deal, either your didn't understand my logic or decided to ignore it. Instead of giving my and example tell me exactly what is wrong my logic.

(Sep 24 '13 at 20:04) isicknewton isicknewton's gravatar image

your logic is mistaken the point of "free will".. if it is forced on us then it will not be called FREE will.

(Sep 24 '13 at 20:52) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

@inclined2truth Exactly now you get it, it is not freewill it is the will of God and you can't be judged for the will of God. Freewill can't exist if created by God.

(Oct 05 '13 at 19:07) isicknewton isicknewton's gravatar image

It is called Freewill because Allah willed that we get a freedom to will the guidance or the misguidance..and Allah will ease the way whether we chose guidance or misguidance. he know each one's intention. if we were forced on misguidance for example then there is no meaning for judgment and it will be unfair to be punished on something we did not want/do.. and higher is Allah the Just. and if you think that Allah does not know everything..including who will be in heaven and who will be in Hell before our birth then you do not know the meaning of how Allah's knowledge encompassed everything.

(Oct 05 '13 at 19:55) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

@isicknewton, I don't know if you are Muslim but there is a few things we must know lets start with the word Qada which means decree: when Alla azza wal jall makes a decree, the decree is fully carried out as the Qur'an states, When He decrees a matter (qada amran), He says to it kun faya kun be and it is. Sura 2:117 3:59 No one has a choice in the decree or freewill as you call it. On the other hand the word Qadr refers to the setting of measures, as the Qur'an states, "And there is Nothing but that with us are the stores thereof, and we do not send it down except (be Qadarim maaluwn) in known measures." (Sura 15:21) Also, "surely, we have created all things with Qadr measure.."(sura54:49). Keep in mind, sura 97 states that the angels by Allah's "Amr" command, comes down with the set measures on the night of power. Now the qadr is what we have a choice in as humans and because Allah knows what our choice will be doesnot mean that He makes man do anything. Inshallah, I want to inform you of something you may not know, and if you are muslim than it is of the most impotance, the first of this matter is called Jabr, and this is the concept that all of man's actions are forced upon him and that he has no power to choose... In english, this is commonly referred to as predtermination-simply put, man simply follows his pre-determined destiny. Although Jabr and predetermination are rather similar and carry many of the same implications, differences between the essences of the two concepts are apparent. What you have propised follows the west concept that God's knowledge of the future is what makes it impossible for us to act on freewill. Jabr, on the other hand, is the belief that man is inherently not bestowed with any power. There is a sect in islam that man has no power to act and that Allah is the proximate cause of all events, good or evil. This concept is a bidah and it is misguidance. The second matter is called Tafwid, and this is the opposite of Jabr and refers to the delegation of power to man, a concept another sect in islam believe that man has power over his good anf bad actions and is also thier creator. Man, therefore, deserves reward or punishment in the next life for what he does in this one. One cannot ascribe to Allah evil anf injustice or an act of disbelif and sin, because if He created injustice, He would be unjust, likewise if He created justice, He would be just. Now to refute both concepts: The quranstates in many suras that Allah has granted " Aql" intellect to seek the truth and that one is commanded to use his intellect to ascertsin the facts. While it is true that Allah had created within man certains powers, but yhese powers are severly limited by Qada and Qadar, the former representing that which Allah directly decrees and against which man is powerless, while the latter represents limits and bounds set by Allah that man cannot possibly transgress. Freedom of will is therefore limited by Allah and in noway limits Allah's power.Allah's justice is real and it is only because of man's limited freedom to choosr his course of action that Allah will approriately reward or punish him. Confirmation from the Qur'an, 9:70, 3:117, 11:101. These ayats state that Allah did not wrong them they wronged themselves. Salaam

answered 8331147 yaqin's gravatar image

@yaqin, Ok so for a man to choose his course of action, he would need some kind of system that makes decision, you can call this system his brain,mind or freewill or whatever it doesn't matter. What matter is that all of these systems are designed by God and will work exactly the way God designed them. The creation will always function according to the mind of the creator think about that, because he is the one who engineered it.

(Sep 23 '13 at 20:27) isicknewton isicknewton's gravatar image

So are you saying that the creator is apart of the creation? I do agree that every system works the way it was designed to do. But km not quite grasping your point. Salaam

(Sep 23 '13 at 23:32) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

A human being is not a combination of two systems in the way that you describe. He in not a binary product (‘human’ + ‘free will’).

Free will is not a system entire of itself. It is merely a function. It is not even an exclusively human function.

My cat makes choices every day: eat this food; eat that food; go outside; stay indoors; hunt this creature; leave that one alone. My cat makes choices, and there are consequences for the choices she makes. Eat the wrong food and she will be poisoned; chase the wrong animal and she may be torn to pieces.

If you lived in the UK and my cat went into your garden and destroyed one or more of your treasured plants you would probably get very annoyed. You might even be tempted to hurl a wellington boot at her, but you certainly could not hold her accountable in law. There is no law applicable to domestic feline behaviour in the UK.

If my four year old grandson were to follow the example of my cat, again there is nothing you could do in law. The law recognises that a child of his age is not criminally responsible.

On the other hand, if I were to follow the example of my grandson then you could prosecute me both for trespass and for criminal damage. Under the law I have criminal responsibility. Under the law I am accountable for my acts and omissions.

Here’s my question:

If I am to be held accountable for my actions under the laws of man, then why should I not be held accountable for my actions under the laws of Allah (Subhana wa Ta'ala)?

answered 0543146 UnknownUser's gravatar image

Salaam brother, a good analogy. Let's hope our friend is not confused by it.

(Sep 23 '13 at 08:35) stronghold ♦ stronghold's gravatar image

Now! Now! LOL!!

(Sep 23 '13 at 08:52) UnknownUser UnknownUser's gravatar image

So humans have a lot of functions much more then what I mentioned above.But here is the deal, please try to understand my logic.Every single function you can think of related to human was created or designed by God and will work exactly the way God designed it.Do you agree with this or not. You claim that you have choices, for example you can go either left or right, but the system that makes these choices was also created by God and will work exactly the way God designed it. You just can't get away from that. So now tell me what do you have inside you that wasn't created or designed by God.

(Sep 23 '13 at 20:04) isicknewton isicknewton's gravatar image

sick issac, there are several flaws in your logic. first there is no god. second, even if there would be, no one in their right mind would think that god's systems are functioning well or as designed. of course you have freewill. it's this concept of predestination that is wacky. and hopefully you are smarter than a cat or a 4 year-old.

paul, i think what he means to say is that if all the systems are designed by god, then aren't our choices merely fulfilling the function within the system? that we no more make a free choice as a calculator would make the choice that 2+2=5? i think he's

(Sep 24 '13 at 15:08) abul rauf abul%20rauf's gravatar image

watched the matrix one too many times. speaking of when to hold children accountable, did i hear they let those two boys out a few months ago? the one's that killed that toddler. most chilling video i ever say, knowing they bluguned him to death outside the mall. so what kind of upbringing do you think uday and usay had? any wonder they turned out to be murderous bastards?

yaqin, still waiting on this curse? i would imagine that would fall under qada. hurricane season is coming to a close here soon. or do you think this will be better targeted than that.

(Sep 24 '13 at 15:16) abul rauf abul%20rauf's gravatar image

@Abul Rauf I am an agnostic, simply because of this very reason, where the religion claims that God created everything, every single person answers by telling a story and giving an example which doesn't relate my questions in the least bit, for example the guy with the King example below, he completely missed my point or just ignored it. By the way, I had several people who do understand my logic, but they just refuted me by saying that our mind can not comprehend this. The mind that was designed by God and the mind that was supposed to understand and worship God is all of sudden very limited.

(Sep 24 '13 at 19:54) isicknewton isicknewton's gravatar image

well, i hope you would see from my statement that i'm an atheist, so i still contend that belief in god lacks logic. but yes religious people/muslims believe that you both have free will and that allah guides whom he chooses. but the abrahamic beliefs are full of self-contradiction. in the koran it says allah seals peoples hearts, then muslims say he only does that because he "knows" they will not receive his divine message. yet he comes to others in dreams and guides them? so if he already knows everyones actions then why bother with this whole charade. so are you saying there is no freewill

(Sep 25 '13 at 09:42) abul rauf abul%20rauf's gravatar image

or are you just saying there is no god? or both. i posted an article above. i think i follow your logic, i just disagree with it, if you are saying there is no freewill. or if you are saying that if god created us he has also preprogramed us. obviously you have heard of newton, how about john locke?

but obviously there are forces at work that influence our freewill. our upbringing, society around us, local customs, and physiology, mental illness. men are greater risk takers generally. stick with paul's anology, curiousity killed the cat, but again i hope people are smarter than cats.

(Sep 25 '13 at 09:59) abul rauf abul%20rauf's gravatar image

Well I dono why you disagree, when someone claims to create the freewill then its not the freewill anymore.Simply because its core functionality comes from the mind of its creator. Remember this logic is based on assumption that God created everything as claimed by most religions including Islam.

(Sep 26 '13 at 21:23) isicknewton isicknewton's gravatar image

i was just messing with ya dude. i agree with you, if i'm reading you right. i asked the same question in the past here. if allah seals some peoples hearts and makes them deaf and blind, (2:7-10 and other times in the koran it says this) then how is it fair that he comdemns them to hell? how can it be called freewill if allah guide whom he chooses. also a recurring theme in the koran. that is why the king anology makes no sense. i disagree with the clear contradictions you find in the abrahamic religions. i'm just saying i thing your premise is a little off. the functionality of the system

(Sep 27 '13 at 10:15) abul rauf abul%20rauf's gravatar image

dynamic doesn't necessarily follow as you lay it out. a creator could create a system of his design without pre-programing the functions of all creation. seems how we have an anology motif going. say you take a top, or better yet a dreidel, and spin it. do you know persicely were it is going to go? obviously if you spin it clockwise it should go to your right, but how far away? why does it change directions? you keep wondering why the apple falls from the tree. so why did i switch from a top to a dreidel? was that my choice due to the abrahamic nature of this discussion. did i have a choice

(Sep 27 '13 at 10:34) abul rauf abul%20rauf's gravatar image

in that choice? or was it a predisposed function of my brain. the tangental nature of my thought process. as morrissy onced asked "does the mind rule the body or does the body rule the mind, i don't know".

see this is why i love this website, y'all make me feel like i'm back in college tripping on mushrooms trying to figure out the nature of the universe. and i like to arguee with people. especially muslims.

and i learn alot.

(Sep 27 '13 at 10:57) abul rauf abul%20rauf's gravatar image
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Asked: Sep 23 '13 at 06:29

Seen: 1,267 times

Last updated: Oct 05 '13 at 19:55

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