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if so shouldn't a woman be able to lead men in prayers? or have her testimony be considered equal to a man's?

asked (suspended) mikejm2's gravatar image

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I think the bottom line here mike regardless of all the possible reasons we give you. The truth is, this is God were talking about, And God in his own power n might knows what and why..the bottom line for us is wether we accept it or not, it won't make a tiny difference to God. Except when we die or the final day comes. GOD WILL remind us of what we did..only then when we will realise our errors it will be TOO LATE. AS the quran mentions" that we will ask Allah, that oh Allah send us back to the world just one more time for a short time and I promise I will be the most grateful and righteous servant to you"but it will be too late. Were all in the same boat Mike, I think you should join us or choose something rather than satan.

answered 1528 Faisal26's gravatar image

"all the ..reasons"? you only give one reason, and it has nothing to do with REASON, because it is in the koran.

so you would perfer an uneducated male as a witness to a female holding a doctrite in law and finance? doesn't a woman head the IMF right now? so if she goes infront of the UN to testify on the state of the world economy, you would give more weight to the opinion of a rural iman/male in afghanistan, then her?

no buddy, we are not in the same boat. we aren't even in the same ocean.

(Nov 05 '13 at 13:24) abul rauf abul%20rauf's gravatar image

no! the woman never lead the men in the prayers, it is in the Quran. there are so many reasons and there is no possibility that a woman would or should.

answered 462619 IAmAMuslim's gravatar image

Ok. No woman iman. Even if she is the only literate person in the village. How about the only speaker do Arabic?

Can she be equal or better in piety?

How about the testimony question?

(Nov 03 '13 at 15:22) mikejm2 mikejm2's gravatar image

Here is a question mike WHY DO YOU CARE>??

(Nov 05 '13 at 04:15) sadie ♦ sadie's gravatar image

shouldn't we all care on how our society is structured? and come on sadie, why wouldn't i care. i'm going to give you a pass on that one, because i don't think you really thought about it.

what do they say? when they came for the jews.....

(Nov 05 '13 at 13:30) abul rauf abul%20rauf's gravatar image

Very simple Mike Islams equality is in the diversity. When Allah says "The most honourable in the eyes of God is the one with the most Taqwa". What this means is as men and women have a responsibility to Allah. As long as they fulfil their their responsibilities to Allah with sincerity and devotion. By Allahs will they will attain the honour of god consciousness and their status will be high infront of Allah. The above verse does not mean women have to lead prayers etc to be close to God.NO. it means in what ever responsibility Allah has given them such as being a good muslim, praying.looking after children.even working etc. They can still be be honourable in the eyes of God. Hope that helps mate.

answered 1528 Faisal26's gravatar image
edited Nov 04 '13 at 04:28 Irfan Alam ♦ 1.1k11042 Irfan%20Alam's gravatar image

I understand they can be honorable. But can they be equal? Or can a woman be above a man in piety.

Most honorable? so could an honorable woman ever hope to equal an honorable man given her natural inability To pray while unclean.

Equality is in its diversity? Do u know what equality means? Clearly women aren't equal in Islam. No?

(Nov 03 '13 at 17:48) mikejm2 mikejm2's gravatar image

A man and woman can be equal in piety yes for sure.And of course yes a woman can be above a man in piety.

Yes a woman can still be honourable because its all about god conciousness, fear, trust and hope in god even in her inabilit y to not be able to pray whilst unclean.

Womean are equal to men in the way god has created us all. Infact if the Western world is so for equality then why do We have separate toilets. If a women is a equal as man theny That means I should be allowed to use a womans toilet? ??cmon Mike there is no equality in this world everyone knows that!

answered 1528 Faisal26's gravatar image

Thats funny. U do know there are unisex bathrooms in the west. And I actually do think there is now a law in America at least. That if u have to you can use a bathroom designated for he other sex. Sorry I'm at my buddies house watching the bucs lose and on his iPad. Hopefully tomorrow I can send u links on ur toilet logic.

Anyway, equality, is equality of opportunity. Equality under the law. Not equality of out come. Or equality of toilet usage.

Still don't know why it takes two women to replace one man when witnessing legal documents?????????

(Nov 03 '13 at 19:29) mikejm2 mikejm2's gravatar image

If I go to a party, and the host in his ignorance of taking differences between people into consideration prepares tea with one spoon of sugar for everyone, even though some has diabetic then this is equality based on ignorance. To give everyone the same is not always wisdom, sometimes its folly.

Equality is crazy when speacialisation is necessary.

(Nov 03 '13 at 21:36) UmarAbdullah ♦ UmarAbdullah's gravatar image

A beauty of Islam is that men and women are always exactly equal where equality is fairness, but where specialisation is required sometimes men has more rights and sometimes women. This shows a carefully taking into account of the difference and giving each in perfection whats fair.

(Nov 03 '13 at 21:36) UmarAbdullah ♦ UmarAbdullah's gravatar image

interesting analogy. problem is it has nothing to do with anything here. in fact if you take a similar analogy and say: a host prepares tea for the women and coffee for the men. why because he is a man and he likes coffee and his wife likes tea, is this not folly because a female guest may dislike tea and like coffee. right?

my oldest sister is a lawyer, my other is a cfo at a large multinational corporation, cobham. both have more specialization in legal and financial matters than I do. despite my penis.

perfection? dude come on. you are trying to defend the indefensible.

(Nov 04 '13 at 14:25) mikejm2 mikejm2's gravatar image

even in the time of Muhammad, who would you rather witness a legal transaction. the chick who was in charge of keeping accounts for the main market, (yaqin, what was her name? bint ..something) who could read and write, or some illiterate shepherd?

specialization is established by training. not gender.

(Nov 04 '13 at 14:29) mikejm2 mikejm2's gravatar image


Im sure that you yourself Mr. Mike can think of many reasons for this.

For example, its not as if this is a sort of deprivation of rights. More so, it frees them from much hassles as naturally this law implies its preferable to have men as witness to financial documents than women.

Id rather do something else than spend my time bearing witness to a financial transactions. Its boring, difficult, and does not benefit me unless I do this action for pleasing Allah and to fulfill His command (which is why we should be doing this or anything else). Furthermore, if there are two witnesses, Ill be at a greater ease of mind that if I forget, my friend can remind me.

Really if you think about it this does not cause any difference to women's rights or cause them any deprivation, any oppression, any hassles, anything. If anything, this makes life for them a lot easier.

Instead of focusing on the hundreds of ways Islam elevates women, anti-Islamic propaganda turns a blind eye to it and focuses on something like this that really has no implications in terms of rights.

In doing so, Muslims are diverted from focusing on the real issue (the Oneness of God and the need to worship Him alone).

I thank you Mr. Mike for your question and I invite you to reflect and think. If you are willing, I refer you to read a very amazing book that I think you will find interesting and eye opening. It is meant for the good people who's interested and curious to know about the truth. The real truth. About questions like religion, purpose of life, logic, heaven, hell, the meaning of why we live etc. Its called the Man in the Red Underpants, and is available here to download free if you wish to read it:

answered 40118 UmarAbdullah's gravatar image

why is it preferable to have men witness over women. you are right it may not be a direct violation of any right. it just sets a bad tone. it leads to bad fiqh. and again, I would rather have an educated woman over an uneducated man, wouldn't you.

btw, here in America if you go into a bank you will find most the tellers are women. and many of them are notary publics, as in they have a state certified seal to witness legal documents.

(Nov 04 '13 at 14:45) mikejm2 mikejm2's gravatar image

I got the same type of answer from LDS re why I was a second class citizen.

(Nov 04 '13 at 18:09) puppas puppas's gravatar image

Thank you for your reply Puppas.

A possible wisdom (and Allah knows best) behind the ruling on financial transaction needing two women witnesses is that women are and were generally less accustomed than men in dealing with finance.

We see it all the time with husbands usually managing the financial matters.

Thus this is a means of greater caution of ensuring the person who is having the trade is better protected due to witness by God's permission in addition to having no negative repercussion for women.

This is no way shape of form implies women to be a second class citizen.

(Nov 04 '13 at 18:31) UmarAbdullah ♦ UmarAbdullah's gravatar image

Furthermore, if you compare the proportion of women who are better accustomed than men in financial transactions throughout the vastnes of the globe and throughout history, you would find that the proportion is very very less.

Allah alone knows the wisdom behind rule. Islamic law based on general not exceptions

Universally,men's brains are more left brain oriented and hence more mathematical and women more central brain oriented.

Even though men can excel in women in certain things where a woman naturally excels the man. (eg. reading emotional cues), he will need more effort. Vice versa.

(Nov 04 '13 at 18:41) UmarAbdullah ♦ UmarAbdullah's gravatar image

Gender defined roles of the past excluded women from anything but wife and mother. Women are no longer confined to these roles as evidenced by female CFOs, bank presidents, business owners, etc. I myself worked in finance for over 20 years, and because I have more experience in financial matters I handle the family finances....not my husband.

(Nov 04 '13 at 19:20) puppas puppas's gravatar image

Following an hadith of the prophet(saw)"verily women are the twin halves of men"(abu dawud) it satisfies all conditions. For women leading salat...a woman cant even lead her fellow sisters in salat if a muslim man is around..not to talk of leading the whole congregation.

answered 10 yaasir's gravatar image

sounds enlightened? so a female who has memorized the entire Koran would be overlooked to lead a prayer because there is a man, who has never even picked up the Koran, present? and this makes sense to you.

(Nov 04 '13 at 14:56) mikejm2 mikejm2's gravatar image

@Puppas Indeed I am happy for you respected Madam. If you read the biography of the Prophet (peace be upon him) you will know that his first wife was also a business women like you. Islam greatly elevates women in all matters of life including financial sector.

We are not talking about financial transactions or limiting the rights of women in finance or accounting. We are simply talking about bearing witness to financial.

Why is it that this issue which does not limit a single right get portrayed as if proof a woman is 1/2 the worth of a man, while issues where women have more RIGHTS than men are ignored??

answered 40118 UmarAbdullah's gravatar image
edited Nov 04 '13 at 21:46

Limiting anyone from any activity based on their gender is wrong. Islam appears to limit women's rights, it's not just this issue.

(Nov 04 '13 at 22:53) puppas puppas's gravatar image

Thank you for your polite comment. Im glad you said 'appears to' rather than an outright allegation even if such a thought was in your mind.

Infact you are right. Islam does appear to limit womens freedom. As it appears to command so many other things as well. The current 'media war' on Islam and the Muslims is so clear even the non-Muslims and the enemies of Islam acknowledge the injustice of portrayal.

Funny thing is, Respected Madam, Islam gives more right to women than any other system, constitution, etc be it practically in the modern Western society or in the books of ethics.

(Nov 05 '13 at 00:37) UmarAbdullah ♦ UmarAbdullah's gravatar image

This would need much time to discuss to you, and I am at the moment very busy. Just to conclude, I hope to show you an example of how Islam elevates women much higher than the West or any law or system.

Allah the Almighty says:

And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses,

flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever,

they indeed are the Fasiqun (liars, rebellious, disobedient to Allah)


How many innocent women whose lives are ruined by slander and who must hide their faces with grief would this verse by Allah's Mercy save?

(Nov 05 '13 at 00:45) UmarAbdullah ♦ UmarAbdullah's gravatar image

As a non-muslim, I do not have to wear a hijab, I can and have jumped on a plane without a mahram, I can marry anyone I like, growing up my best friend was male, and I am slated to inherit the bulk of my parent's estate. If I were muslim, none of these would be possible. Islam appears to limit the freedoms & rights of women because that is exactly what it does.

(Nov 05 '13 at 03:25) puppas puppas's gravatar image

puppas, you ignorant slut. your bihad is borderline blasphemey. how dare you question the wisdom of the divine writ? of the laws of allah? flying around the world without a wali? you are queen of the house, now stay there.

[4.11] Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females;

don't be coming up with any specifics. i don't care if your brother is an irresponsable spend thrift. your parents have to give him twice as much as you.

silly girl.

(Nov 05 '13 at 13:54) abul rauf abul%20rauf's gravatar image

Thanks Mike.....I must have lost my senses for a minute. :)

(Nov 05 '13 at 14:24) puppas puppas's gravatar image

puppas. now you've done it. you got the ire of the second caliphate raised. no soup for you. come back one year.

(Nov 05 '13 at 16:26) abul rauf abul%20rauf's gravatar image

Well, might as well get another tattoo then!

(Nov 05 '13 at 20:02) puppas puppas's gravatar image
showing 5 of 8 show all

Salam thanks for initiating an interesting topic, yes it is true a woman may lead from a man in case of piety but honestly speaking if one also perceive that a woman can also workout as a leader then it would not be justified as she lacks decision power.

answered 10 anisafatima's gravatar image

why does she lack decision power?

(Nov 05 '13 at 13:57) abul rauf abul%20rauf's gravatar image

Of course....Margaret Thatcher was notorious for her inability to make a decision.

(Nov 05 '13 at 14:10) puppas puppas's gravatar image

Someone or something has messed up my comments again. The comment I wrote last night has been moved to an earlier date Nd the comment I made the day before has been moved to a later date.what is going on????

answered 1528 Faisal26's gravatar image

as a moderator all I can do is edit your post or delete it, I am not sure how anyone could change when it was posted ?

(Nov 05 '13 at 04:11) sadie ♦ sadie's gravatar image

Thanks sadie for your response. Yes I know its really strange.dont make any sense.

(Nov 05 '13 at 04:23) Faisal26 Faisal26's gravatar image

AssalamuAlaikum brother. Maybe I can shed some light on the mystery. Whats happened is that your posts go up if they get 'likes' I think.

(Nov 05 '13 at 04:33) UmarAbdullah ♦ UmarAbdullah's gravatar image

Jazakallah umar..sadie is that correct?

(Nov 05 '13 at 04:48) Faisal26 Faisal26's gravatar image

@Faisal26: Dont use answer field for comments...

(Nov 05 '13 at 12:08) Irfan Alam ♦ Irfan%20Alam's gravatar image

umar, i see you posted a link from islamqa. (btw, my second favorite islamic website, this guy cracks me up to no end. did you see his logic on DNA evidence for rape? funny as hell) note where he posts a hadith that quotes muhammad stating as to why it takes two women to EQUAL one man.

maybe having women inherit half as much and having their testimony count as half, is where some people get the idea that women are seen as half a man in islam? or maybe it's fox news and spencer and gellar? Share Why are there more women in hell than men?

Praise be to Allaah.

It was narrated from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that women will form the majority of the people of Hell. It was narrated from ‘Imraan ibn Husayn that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I looked into Paradise and I saw that the majority of its people were the poor. And I looked into Hell and I saw that the majority of its people are women.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3241; Muslim, 2737)

With regard to the reason for that, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was asked about it and he explained the reason.

It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I was shown Hell and I have never seen anything more terrifying than it. And I saw that the majority of its people are women.” They said, “Why, O Messenger of Allaah?” He said, “Because of their ingratitude (kufr).” It was said, “Are they ungrateful to Allaah?” He said, “They are ungrateful to their companions (husbands) and ungrateful for good treatment. If you are kind to one of them for a lifetime then she sees one (undesirable) thing in you, she will say, ‘I have never had anything good from you.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1052)

It was narrated that Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri said:

“The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) went out to the Musalla on the day of Eid al-Adha or Eid al-Fitr. He passed by the women and said, ‘O women! Give charity, for I have seen that you form the majority of the people of Hell.’ They asked, ‘Why is that, O Messenger of Allaah?’ He replied, ‘You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religious commitment than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.’ The women asked, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, what is deficient in our intelligence and religious commitment?’ He said, ‘Is not the testimony of two women equal to the testimony of one man?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Is it not true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is the deficiency in her religious commitment.’”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 304)

It was narrated that Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah said: “I attended Eid prayers with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He started with the prayer before the khutbah, with no adhaan or iqaamah. Then he stood up, leaning on Bilaal, speaking of fear of Allaah (taqwa) and urging us to obey Him. He preached to the people and reminded them. Then he went over to the women and preached to them and reminded them. Then he said, ‘Give in charity, for you are the majority of the fuel of Hell. A woman with dark cheeks stood up in the midst of the women and said, ‘Why is that, O Messenger of Allaah?’ He said, ‘Because you complain too much and are ungrateful to your husbands.’ Then they started to give their jewellery in charity, throwing their earrings and rings into Bilaal’s cloak.”

(Narrated by Muslim, 885)

Our believing sisters who learn of this hadeeth should behave like those Sahaabiyaat who, when they learned of this, did good deeds which would be the means, by Allaah’s leave, of keeping them far away from being included in that majority of the inhabitants of Hell.

So our advice to the sisters is to strive to adhere to the rituals and obligatory duties of Islam, especially prayer, and to keep away from that which Allaah has forbidden, especially shirk in its many forms which are widespread among women, such as seeking one's needs from someone other than Allaah, going to practitioners of witchcraft and fortune-tellers, etc.

We ask Allaah to keep us and all our brothers and sisters far away from the Fire and the words and deeds that bring one close to it.

Islam Q&A

answered (suspended) abul%20rauf's gravatar image

Dear Mike first of all, you are an elderly gentleman. You are financially trained. You are well spoken in English. You should know better than to be engaging in such vile manner of mockery about people's faith.

You know this better than me perhaps Mr Mike. Remember that you are conversing with other respected ladies and gentlemen here. Just because people here may follow a different faith to you does not make you eligible to mock them.

What you are doing is totally wrong and must be desisted from.

(Nov 05 '13 at 22:29) UmarAbdullah ♦ UmarAbdullah's gravatar image

Secondly, Im afraid neither I nor you will be staying in this site if your mockery continues, nor will I reply to you

As for me this is in obeidence to the verse of Allah:

“And it has already been revealed to you in the Book

that when you hear the Verses of Allaah being denied and mocked at,

then sit not with them, until they engage in a talk other than that;

(but if you stayed with them) certainly in that case you would be like them.

Surely, Allaah will collect the hypocrites and disbelievers all together in Hell”

[al-Nisaa’ 4:140]

And you Mr Mike will be banned.

(Nov 05 '13 at 22:33) UmarAbdullah ♦ UmarAbdullah's gravatar image

Thirdly, the Sheikh is totally right in what He says. I read his answer before I posted a single comment on this issue.

However the Sheikh, may Allah bless Him, did not mention the additional wisdom of this ruling from statistics and logic that are mentioned by many Islamic speakers, eg. Dr Zair Naik, Dr. Sheikh Muhammad Salah

(Nov 05 '13 at 22:43) UmarAbdullah ♦ UmarAbdullah's gravatar image
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Asked: Nov 03 '13 at 12:40

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Last updated: Nov 06 '13 at 13:01

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