Did the Rasul saws implement two adhans to be called on jummah?

asked 765831 yaqin's gravatar image

What does implement mean?

this question need to be answer

(Nov 09 '13 at 10:43) Bibi Amina ♦ Bibi%20Amina's gravatar image

It means did he do it or said to do it. Salaam

(Nov 09 '13 at 10:49) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

In the reign of uthman Affan he implemented the calling of a second adhan on jummah friday. So ifnthe Rasul didnt implement it. Should we still do it today. If so why? If not explain... salaam

(Nov 09 '13 at 16:54) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

This was a great islamic talk that all should read inshallah.salaam

(Feb 15 at 10:58) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

The azan , I know little about, but i have this, which make me think that the Azan is rightful ,to be called twice, though the description also contains other rules in certain times, ramadan, etc. Here is a snippet of an essay on the Azan,including the revealing of the Azan. As aouthored by prof.Dr.Muhammad Asadullah Al-Ghalib

A group of Sahabis including Umar (R) dreamt of Azan in the same night when the Prophet

(sm) got the direction in the next morning through revelation and asked Belal (R) to chant

Azan accordingly.[2]

Abdullah bin Zaid (R) a Sahabi, who in the morning described first the words of Azan to the

Prophet (sm) which he got through a dream last night. Later on hearing the same call of

Azan in the voice of Belal, Umar (R) came to the Prophet (sm) cladding his wrapper and

said, ‘By Allah! Who send you with truth, I have also seen the same dream’. On hearing this

the Prophet (sm) praised to Allah by uttering ‘Falilla-hil Hamd’[3] According to one

narrative, eleven Sahabis saw the same dream of Azan in that particular night.[4] It can

be referred that Umar Farooq (R) saw that dream 20 days before. But he did not disclose it

out of shame that Abdullah bin Zaid disclosed it earlier. [5]

Since Belal had a high-pitched voice the Prophet (sm) asked him to chant Azan and asked

Abdullah bin Zaid the 1st describer of the dream of Azan, to pronounce Iqamat. Anas (R)

said that Belal has been ordered to chant Azan twice and Iqamat once.[16] In this way the

words of Azan in Islam became practiced twice and Iqamat once. On coming back to Madina

after the conquest of Makkah in 8th hijrah, the Prophet (sm) appointed Belal as permanent

Muwazzin of the Masjid-i-Nabavi. In the 11th hijrah after the demise of the Prophet (sm)

Belal migrated to Syria and he left his disciple Sa‘d al-qaraz at Madina on that duty.

Abdullah bin Umar (R) says,

Now according to authentic hadeethes, the process of Azan becomes three and that of Iqamat two. (1) The Kalima of Belali Azan and Iqamat is 15 and 11 respectively as narrated by Abdullah bin Zaid (R), which was in vogue everywhere including Makkah and Madina during the time of the Prophet (sm). (2) 19 and 17 for Tarjee‘ Azan and 17 for Iqamat narrated by Abu Mahzoorah (R), all are permissible. But twice for Azan and once for Iqamat as the process of Belal are undoubtedly the best to follow, which have been accepted cordially by most of the MuslimUmmah in all ages.

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answered 3387 abyadgirl's gravatar image

I can not find any information as pertaining to Jummah.

(Nov 10 '13 at 09:46) abyadgirl abyadgirl's gravatar image

yes the second azan of Jum3a was at the time of sayidna Uthman. and we should keep it as sayidna Muhammad told us to follow his sunnah and the sunnah/model of the khulafaa(khalifa) rashideen after him, that among them is Uthman Radiya Allahou anhou(whom Allah is pleased/agreed with him).

and as it remained in the time of sayidna Ali ibn abi talib after Uthman and all the ummah till our moment.. and as the majority of muslims will not gather on a Dalala(astrayed/lost). that is why we should keep it. (and the reason of making a second azan as I heard it was because the number of muslims was increased in number in his time, so they needed a second azan before the imam start the speech.)

al Salaamou alaikum

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answered 377116 inclined2truth's gravatar image
1

Beloved, would you agree or disagree that any hadith that goes against the quran must be rejected? This hadith you are speaking about does it agree with the quran or disagree? Remember the system of ilm rijal came after the time of the Rasul and the salaf, so what is this practice? I will wait for your response. Salaam

(Nov 09 '13 at 23:56) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

of course brother yaqeen that hadith is supported by Quran! as the believers are commanded to obey Ouli Al-Amr(those of authority(based on their knowledge));

"O you who have believed, obey Allāh and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allāh and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allāh and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result." (4:59)

(Nov 10 '13 at 08:13) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

"And when there comes to them information about [public] security or fear, they spread it around. But if they had referred it back to the Messenger or to those of authority among them, then the ones who [can] draw correct conclusions from it would have known about it. And if not for the favor of Allāh upon you and His mercy, you would have followed Satan, except for a few."(4:83)

Do you think sayidna Uthman radiya Allahou anhou was misleading the ummah all this time, and now we will correct them??

(Nov 10 '13 at 08:15) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

My brother in islam, this is the typical answer to this question as it has been debated for years. These ayats you speak of says nothing about following anyone's sunnah, these ayats speaks of those placed in authority during the time of the rasul, such as the army govenors and so forth. Each was in this position do to their knowledge but mostly thieir adab, this is why it states to refer matters back to the Rasul and that is to allivate one using his own qiyas from his own thoughts. Whatever the conclusion it must derive from the quran and sunnah, which by this time the deen was perfected.

(Nov 10 '13 at 13:14) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

Perfected by whom? Allah azza wal jall and the example of this perfection is the itteebah of His messenger, what you suggest is that it is ok to interject someting into the deen that was not done during the time of the Rasul and a longtime after his death. Your question at the end of your post is most disturbing to me because you act as if corecting the good brother for anything which is an innovation by definition is like correcting the Rasul. the revelation stopped with Muhammad. He followed what was revealed to him as we must do also. Imam malik said in a athar: a bidah is anything that

(Nov 10 '13 at 13:34) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

Is practiced in the deen today that was not practiced in the time of the Rasul. Most masjids I have been in over the past 47 years do not do this practice for the reasons we are discussing now. If what you have suggested is the haqq then they all are in error for not following the sunnah of uthaman. The best speech is the speech of Allah and the best guidance is that of Muhamnad. The worst matters in the deen if islam is newly invented matters for EVERY NEWLY INVENTED MATTER IS A MISGUIDANCE AND EVERY MISGUIDANCE WILL BE IN THE FIRE. this my brother is the haqq and it does matter who it did it

(Nov 10 '13 at 13:44) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

This hadith does not line up with the quran and it must be rejected as the practice is and has been by those who fear Allah. Brother only the Qur'an and the authenticated sunnah of the Rasul cannot and shall not be corrected for we can't correct perfection anyone else can be and must be if what is said and done goes against the perfected way. Salaam

(Nov 10 '13 at 13:52) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

Brother Yaqin i do not really like to argue. but i will tell you two points; you interpreted the verses of Quran that "Ouli el-Amr"(ones of authority) that is was at the time of Rasoul-Allah! how did you know that? governor in the battles! so how about the verse(4:83) the Quran is made for forever. and how about Uthman the third khalifa of muslims, is not he considered one of authority? was not he is the one who collected Quran, was it bid3a too then? or was Islam not complete before?

(Nov 10 '13 at 14:22) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

second point;you think majority of muslims including the companions of prophet Muhammad were on bid3a for about 1400 yrs, and only since 47 yrs it is corrected! this is the wahabi(mohamed ibn abdelwahab) version of islam brother and not the Islam of Muhammad ibn Abdillah.

please be careful from the wahabi version and study their history well.

And [there is a share for] those who came after them, saying, "Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers who preceded us in faith and put not in our hearts [any] resentment toward those who have believed. Our Lord, indeed You are Kind and Merciful."59:10

(Nov 10 '13 at 14:28) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

Asalaam, can i interject here, if you dont mind. Please tell me, is the Azan called twice for every salat, or just on Jummah? This is a subject i really know nothing about. And is this a correct practice, if by what i found in my notes, it was implemented during Muhammads, saw, lifetime, and onwards. Is this true?

(Nov 10 '13 at 14:46) abyadgirl abyadgirl's gravatar image

My brother it is not an arguement it is constructive dialogue which is good for know I love you for the sake of Allah. Yes uthman was one in authority and the ayah was speaking about him, if you thought I was saying something different than this should correct it. What I am saying is that even the ones in authority must follow the itteebah of the Rasul, they cannot add or take away from that which has been perfected. No my beloved brother I donot ascribe to the salafi dawah,and you are correct the quran is forever, so that means we are to follow the sunnah of the Rasul only forever and those

(Nov 10 '13 at 16:47) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

elhamdoulellah my beloved brother in Allah's path, elhamdoulellah your reply is a relief to me! :)

(Nov 10 '13 at 16:51) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

@abyadgirl. only Jum3a prayer has two Azaan/call and one iqama/start establishing. other prayers are with only one azan and one iqama

(Nov 10 '13 at 16:54) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

In authority must do the same. As I told you there are many more masjids that don't do it than do. Brother right is right wrong is wrong. Inorder to make this right you have to produce the hadith that this was done. It doesn't exist and this we both know, so this leaves us in a grey area and when in this position we must adhere to the strongest proof.And that being it was not done. This my brother has nothing to do with madhab it is adhereing to the Quran and sunnah which this practice is not a part of and you can't deny this fact. Now if you are of the mindset that you can follow the sunnah

(Nov 10 '13 at 16:58) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

of anyone else so be it and Allah will judge in that inwhich we differ. Brother I'm telling you that this practice is a bidah and a mistake made by uthman may Allah forgive him his shortcomings and grant him paradise. Brother I hold no resentment in my heart for uthman or any of the muslims, what I do is safeguard my deen and I encourage all muslims to do the same. The ayat doesn't say that we can follow the sunnah of the one in authority, for to suggest such means the Rasul has been wretched in conveying the message.I seek refuge with Allah from that, for thatsis far from the haqq ....salaam

(Nov 10 '13 at 17:02) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

Sister I don't understand your question if you are asking about the two adhans on jumnah it was not done by the Rasul saws. If you are asking about two adhabs for salah for ehat I know this also was not done. Muslims call the adhan then the iqamat. This is what I know to be the haqq. Salaam

(Nov 10 '13 at 17:23) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

And brother another point uthman did not collect the quran this was done during the khalifahship of abu bakr after the request of umar ibn khattab, whom abu bakr passed to umar and umar passed it to his daughter hafsa and from here is where umar got the compiled quran and he added the vowels sun and moon letters to the quran and he ordered all other copies burned. This why shia calk the quran we read today uthaymim script. Now I'm not going to go into your question for the sake of brotherhood and those who may not have strong iman. What I will say is that the Rasul had scribes copying the

(Nov 10 '13 at 17:37) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

Revelation, so what abu bakr and umar did was not a bidah and if you say that uthman did it than it was not so either for it was done in the time of the Rasul. Salaam

(Nov 10 '13 at 17:41) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

brother Yaqin, I can not argue with you in accusing sayidna Uthman of committing Bid3a! Not only Uthman in your claim but all the muslims who followed him after are on Bid3a in your view. I do not know if they did not understand Islam and Bid3a correctly then who understand it? me or you? astaghferullah! we are told that the companions of Rasoul-Allah are like the stars if you followed any of them you will be guided. how can they be doing Bid3a!

brother I hope you recheck your understanding/definition of Bid3a before carrying that big responsibility against Uthman and the majority of muslims

(Nov 11 '13 at 08:15) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

Because whether your understanding of Bid3a is wrong and they are all right! or they are all wrong(mubdi3een) and you are right.

(Nov 11 '13 at 08:18) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

@inclined2truth, my beloved brother Im comfortable with my position for that which was sent to guide the affairs of mankind was not sent to any sahabah it was given to the Rasul saws. You say my definition of bidah but it is not my definition I gave you the definition according to imam Malik and I can give you others from those of the past if you like. Brother you speak as if every muslim nowaday is upon this practice and this is not the haqq. There are eight masjids that I frequent in my area two do it and six donot. Why? Because all of the people of uthman time didn't do it either.

(Nov 11 '13 at 10:16) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

And this fact is clear for as I have said before if what you said is the haqq then everyone should be following what was implemented after the Rasul and this is not so. Why? For the reason I just mentioned! Your statement about the guidance coming from the sahabah, Allah says this, " And among the bedouins round about you some are munafiq, AND SO ARE SOME AMONG THE PEOPLE OF AL MADINA, THEY EXAGGERATE AND PERSIST IN HYPOCRISY,you o Muhummad do not know them, We know them, We shall punish them twiceand thereafter they shall be brought back to a great torment." (9:101) Now which of your many

(Nov 11 '13 at 10:42) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

Stars where not munafiq????? You can't say nor could I, actually no one now or then could either for the Rasul saws didn't know, and we cannot negate the facts that Allah is talking about the companions in Madina. Beloved inshallah I'm going to put back the post on the pious companions, please do read what I posted and lets speak on it. My beloved brother I truly enjoy talking islam wit you. Your passion is well noted and I beg Allah to reward you for it. Salaam

(Nov 11 '13 at 11:01) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

brother,I did not want to argue because it harms more than it benefit, imo. but because the one who is silent from the truth is like a mute satan.I want to tell you that most scholars agreed that there is something called bid3a hassana(good innovation)and that is one of its examples. but to say that Uthman and the muslims after him were committing Bid3a(which deserve punishment in Hell) is a bid3a, imo

do not forget that we are talking about best Ummah(3:110)"You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allāh."

(Nov 11 '13 at 18:26) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

and sayidna Muhammad told us that the best century of muslims are his century and then the ones after them and then the ones after them.. so they are like "la crème de la crème" best people of best ummah. "...Not equal among you are those who spent before the conquest [of Makkah] and fought [and those who did so after it]. Those are greater in degree than they who spent afterwards and fought. But to all Allāh has promised the best [reward]. And Allāh, with what you do, is Acquainted." (Al-hadeed:10)

they are the one who carried for us the Quran and Sunnah.. how can they be in bad Bid3a?

(Nov 11 '13 at 18:33) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

Our reference in Islam is the 1.Quran and 2.Sunnah and 3.Jama3a/group of Muslims. in hadith of "fitan" we are told to attach to the group of Muslims..and that Jama3a/group is the saved team..and "you should follow my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly guided khalifas after me"hadith

"And the first forerunners [in the faith] among the Muhājireen and the An§ār and those who followed them with good conduct–Allāh is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. That is the great attainment."9:100

(Nov 11 '13 at 18:45) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

Beloved there is no proof outside of fatwas of a good bidah, this concept is to be rejected, for it is no quran or sunnah that confirms this concept I'm sorry brother I don't follow scholars I only follow the quran and the authenticated sunnah, now I will accept the quran and authenticated sunnah from wherever it comes. Also, as you know there are scholars that are against this concept. I told you before that this is a grey area and when you find yourself in this position it is best to accept the strongest proof and that is it was not done during the time of the Rasul. Now as you have

(Nov 11 '13 at 18:50) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

specifically sayidna Uthma Radiya Allahou 3anhou was called "zil-Nourein" the one who possesses two lights.. because he was marrying two daughters of sayidna Muhammad Salla Allahou 3alayhi wa sallam.

he is the one that sayidna Muhammad said about him, " should not I be shy from someone that the angels are shy from him!"

he is the one who prepared (from his money) the army of 3ousra/hardship.. and the one who spend from his money for digging the well of Roumiyya.

if he is doing bad-Bid3a then how can I trust the Quran in my hand today?

(Nov 11 '13 at 18:52) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

"Muúammad, (is) the Messenger of Allāh; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allāh and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah...

(Nov 11 '13 at 18:58) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers – so that Allāh may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allāh has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward." (48:29)

(Nov 11 '13 at 18:58) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

May Allah let us be of those that the Quran described them and their saying in 59:10 "And [there is a share for] those who came after them, saying, "Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers who preceded us in faith and put not in our hearts [any] resentment toward those who have believed. Our Lord, indeed You are Kind and Merciful."

(Nov 11 '13 at 19:02) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

pionted out sura 3:110, and I'm not speaking against it what I'm telling you that those that adhered to the quran and the example of the Rasul is who this ayah is speaking about for as I have pointed out their where munafiqs amongst them. I have not forgotten whom I'm speaking about but I hold no ones opinion higher than the guidance of the Rasul., nor will I defend something that has no bases in the quran and sunnah. Uthman was not a nabi or Rasul, no revelation was ever given to him. I love him for the sake of Allah as I do every muslim, but brother he made a mistake. And whether he is

(Nov 11 '13 at 19:05) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

(Excuse me brother I did not see your last reply as I was still replying to you).. regarding the proof of good bid3a from Quran and Sunnah.. I have two for you. in Quran about the followers of Jesus; "...And We placed in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy and monasticism, WHICH THEY INNOVATED; We did not prescribe it for them except [that they did so] seeking the approval of Allāh..."(57:27)

and in hadith; "whoever START a sunnah/model which is good in ISLAM then to him is its reward and the reward of ones who practiced it..."

(Nov 11 '13 at 19:19) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

Punished or not is for Allah to be the judge. All I'm pointing out is the action. Beloved there is no such thing as a good bidah. I seek refuge with Allah from that. The Rasul had said that kull all bidah is misguidance and kull all misguidance will be in the nar fire. Now what foundation are you comfortable on, the words of the Rasul or the fatawas of scholars which contradicts the Rasul of Allah? For me it is simple, but I found that it is not so for some. Beloved we are not argueing we are having an islamic discussion. I posted the pious campanions I pray you read it. Salaam

(Nov 11 '13 at 19:20) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

I just posted my proofs of good/hassana bid3a from Quran. as you see "Rahbaneya/monasticism"(or to avoid the worldly pleasures to be free for Ibadah) and Quran is telling us that" they innovated it, we did not prescribe it for them" but they did for "seeking the approval of Allah" and the rest of the verse "But they did not observe it with due observance. So We gave the ones who believed among them their reward, but many of them are defiantly disobedient." so Allah say good words/compliment about the good ones and that they will get their rewards.. and that is an approval of good bid3a

(Nov 11 '13 at 19:34) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image
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@inclined2truth,beloved I read all of your post about the mujahirs that made hijra for the sake of Allah and fought may Allah reward them for their sacrafice, Ameen. But I explained my position when I told you about the sura you used, 3:110. I'm not refuting any of it but I pointedout the fact we must not negate, ma'shallah. What I want to discuss with you now is the ayah and hadith you used. Beloved I'm well aquainted with both, and to be honest I was waiting for you to use them. With that said lets deal with the ayah inshallah. First lets state the fact that the ayah does not say anything about what they innovated being good. Allah azza wal jall speaks about their intentions but thats it. You cannot interject a bidah into what Allah has sent down as I will show inshallah. " But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves,We did not prescribe, but they did to only please Allah therewith." (57:27) Now here Allah is telling us what those who did that which was not prescribed by Allah intentions was. Now what does it mean, "not prescribed?" It means that Isa AS didn't do it or told them to do it. This point must be made clear they had the same obligation as we do and that is to follow the itteebah of the Rasul saws. Next Allah states: " but they did not observe it with the right observance." (57:27) Now beloved how did they not observe this bidah that was only done to please Allah with the right observance? FIrst and foremost isa AS had showed them how to be in the world but not be of it. So the correct observance is to do what Isa AS left as a example, this is the only correct observance. Not the bidah that is not a part of the injeel or his sunnah, as you are suggesting. Next Allah states: " So We gave those of them who believed their due reward." (57:27) . Now beloved why was they rewarded? Was it for the bidah, this is what you are suggesting. But Allah said they were rewarded because they believed, believed what beloved? They believed in the ITTABAUUWHU meaning as the quran states, "and we ordained in the hearts of those who ittabauuhu followed him , compassion and mercy." So the compassion and mercy was given to those who followed him meaning the injeel and his sunnah. So where does it state that the bidah that was not prescribed is a good bidah? On the contrary the quran states, but many of them are fasiqun (rebellious disobedient to Allah)." (52:27) What would make them fasiq beloved, if what they did was a good innovation accepted by Allah, their aqeedah rested on the ittabauuhu of Isa AS not thier own qiyas and when they did what was not prescribed from Allah for the example for them is Isa AS, nothing else or no one else can intervene in what Allah has been sent down. Now for the hadith this ayah proves one cannot introduce something into the deen because they feel it is good it must be prescribed, if it is not than it is being fasiq to the itteebah of the example sent, this makes such a person or persons fasiq. I reject your proof and I beg you not to use it, for what you have used it for is not the haqq. May Allah guide you. Salaam

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answered 765831 yaqin's gravatar image
edited Mar 22 at 16:36

Another thing beloved I'm not refuting that some of the sahabah were grand muslims with proper adab and I know what is said about uthman, but again my deen is based of off the example of Allah messenger. All of the ayah you qouted about the sahabah I accept, just like you must accept the ayah that show some of them in a negative light if I were to post them. Basically I touched on the subject on the post pious companions. Al hamdulilah, it is a blessing to be able to talk islam with you brother I enjoy the haqq you bring even that which I may not agree with. Salaam

(Nov 11 '13 at 23:00) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

Al salaamou alaikum brother yaqin, I ask Allah to let the truth appear from this discussion whether from your keyboard or mine. this is the goal of both of us, elhamdoulellah! and may Allah let us be from the ones who listen to the sayings/speeches so they follow the best of it.. and may he show us the truth as truth and provide us following it. and I start by elhamdoulellah and sending salah and salaam upon rasoulellah, and after that;

"Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed [them] with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel. And We placed in the hearts of those who followed him compassion(Ra2fah) and mercy(ra7mah) and monasticism(Rahbaneyah), which they innovated(did as bid3a); We did not prescribe it for them except [that they did so] seeking the approval of Allāh. But they did not observe it with due observance. So We gave the ones who believed among them their reward, but many of them are defiantly disobedient."(57:27)

we notice that; 1) Allah placed in the hearts of Jesus' followers compassion and mercy. 2)they innovated(did bid3a) the Rahbaneya. Allah did not prescribe it for them but they did it for seeking Allah's Redwan/agreeing/approval with them. 3) but the problem is not with the bid3a itself.. but the problem is with that some of them did not observe it with the observance that it deserve(they did not treat with it as it should be done)(they did not take care of it as should be).. 4) So Allah rewarded the believers among them their reward, while many of them(the majority) were fasiq-oon/disobedient.

the real followers of Isa/Jesus were fought and killed by the kings at that time.. so they decided to live far from the city in the mountains away from the kings, and that is what they innovated. (to disconnect from this world until the seal of prophets/Muhammad comes and follow him). they did it seeking Allah's Redwan/agreeing. (Rahbaneya have two meanings; 1.fear 2.isolate from worldly affairs/pleasures.. like living in the mountains, and eat drink few, or non marriage..etc)

but some of them did not treat well/properly with that good Bid3a/innovation of Rahbaneya to please Allah, which is not good.. as we were told that some Rohban/priests from Rahbaneya were doing that seeking the money and authority and not to please Allah. as in the verse (9:34) "O you who have believed, indeed many of the A7bar/scholars and the Rohban/monks devour the wealth of people unjustly and avert [them] from the way of Allāh. And those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allāh – give them tidings of a painful punishment."

I made bold on "MANY" because it suit with the our verse (57:27) when Allah sealed the verse saying (the meaning) of "MOST/MANY of them were disobedient".. not all of them. because in another verse mentioning the Rohban/monks/scholars with good as in (5:82) "You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews and those who associate others with Allāh; and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests/Qisseess and monks/Rohban and because they are not arrogant."

it used the word "among them" because few were good while many/most of them were disobedient. So the problem is not with what they innovated, but in not practicing it properly.

and Allah knows better!

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answered 377116 inclined2truth's gravatar image
edited Nov 12 '13 at 09:06

Also another example of their wrong observation/re3aya/care of that Rahbaneya that they took theirs Rohban/Monks as lords with Allah.. "They have taken their scholars and monks/Rohban as lords besides Allāh, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him." (9:31)

(Nov 12 '13 at 09:28) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

@inclined2truth Beloved I informed you that I was well informed with this verse, so you reiterating it to me is moot, but I noticed that in your transliteration you use the word except instead of but, which would be the better word coming from the arabia. Now you have not shown with baseerah crystal clear proof that Allah accepted this bidah and deemed it good. What you have done is repeat basically what you stated before when you presented this ayah. You say it was not the bidah that brought about the wrong observance and this is wrong. You claim that isa AS followers were being persecuted so they went to live this lifestyle which was not prescribed. Beloved the true followers of Isa would have never resorted to the tactics you speak about. They were taught to rely on Allah by Isa AS read the so called gospel of Matthew 10:1-30, they were taught to go out without money or food or change of clothes. Brother you have your facts twisted, the Christians you are talking about being persecuted by the Romans was followers of Paul, for he innovated into the teachings of Isa AS which layed the foundation to christianity in the Nicene council in 325 A.D. by constantine and from this meeting came the christain decree, meaning the monk life, taking of money from the people for prayers and so forth. The true followers of Isa AS went out and did as he done called to the way for this was what was prescribed for them to do nothing else.they were to endure any hardship while on this path. Do you know that some Isrealites and that was what Isa AS was, seperated themselves from the tribes and the tabernacle do to the corrupted preisthood of Onias brother Jason and Hellenism? Before Isa AS was born, the ones which had done this was called the essene and isa AS was one before he started his calling to the tribes of isreal to forsake hellenism and return to the law, this is the only people he was sent to. The christians you speak about were gentiles. The essene living was not perscribed to his followers even though isa AS had lived it, so again as I have shown you that among them doesn't mean those who lived there it is talking about the so called followers of Isa, which breaks into two catergories those who followed the iteebah and those who did not. Those who did recieved their due reward and the rest was fasiq do to their innovative practices which was not perscribed. Beloved seeking wealth is an innovation on the itteebah of Isa AS, so every reason you give of their doing is an innovation so how could you say in the same breath the problem was not what they innovated, the problem is not practicing it properly. I seek refuge with Allah from this statement. How does one practice an innovation not prescribed properly? Where does the example come from, their own qiyas? The first to use qiyas was the shaytan, so this is not a good trait. The problem is and was the bidah there is noway to properly practice an innovation for bidah is misguidance meaning it was not odered by Allah to do it. This is a problem for misguidance will reside in the fire every last one of them. The Rasul did not say all exccept the good ones, he said all. That leaves no room brother. Now there is a hadith reported by abu Huriah that the Rasul went looking for Bilal and asked him, what is this you are doing that I see your footprints going into paradise before mine. Bilal replyed, O Rasul all I can think of is that I offer two Rakats everytime after I offer wudu." Is this a bidah? No, for we can offer nawfil salah anytime we want. Now if I tell someone you must do this then it becomes an innovation. I see in your comment you used 9:31, beloved when you have an understanding that the Rabbis and monks are not only two different entities,meaning, the Rabbis are the among the childrend of isreal, which Isa was and no one can refute that fact, and the monks are of the Christian movement implemented first by Paul and made the offcial religion of the gentiles by Constantine in 325A.D. which Isa AS was not and The book of Acts confirms that Isa was not a Christian it states, The diciples were FIRSTcalled christian in Antioch. (Acts11:26). This was after isa had left the seen.now if you are saying that accepting them as their Lord above Allah is an innovation I agree and it is shirk and it is a wrong observance and so is going against the itteebah of Isa AS and so is going against the itteebah of the Rasul saws. I still reject your claim that this ayah condones innovation. Also beloved, rabbis are not monk's, rabbis are teachers of the laws of Musa AS, and monks are teachers of the hellenistic concept of Jesus Christ the Greco Roman Fabrication sir named christianity, inwhich they do not follow the itteebah of Isa AS so they are Ahlul bidah, the people of innovation.salaam

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answered 765831 yaqin's gravatar image
edited Nov 12 '13 at 12:32

Beloved brother I really enjoy the dialogue with you, al hamdulilah. Now I want to say that the ayah you used 9:34 is unique for the reason why they the chriistian monk and the jewish rabbi avert people away from the path of Allah and that is due to the Fact both fall under the banner of a hellenistic concept which is paganism which Yahsua the hebrew messiah spoke out against and taught against. Food for thought. Salaam

(Nov 12 '13 at 13:57) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

one question to you brother; Do you understand Quran via translations or from Arabic Quran directly?

The verse is very clear when using "BUT", "... BUT they did not observe it with due observance." Thus the problem is in not-observing-it correctly.

And if the problem was in the Bid3a then there is no need to say; "but they did not observe it with due observance." because whether they observe it well or not, in both case it is wrong/haram.. and if so, there is no need to say in the rest of the verse "So We gave the ones who believed AMONG them their reward." among ones with bid3a a reward!

(Nov 12 '13 at 14:39) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

Beloved brother I understand from both aspects and I still disagree with you, for the but is not pertaining to the actions it is pertaining to the innovation, why because Isa has showed them and told them how to please Allah. We call that the prescribed way. Remember that the scholars whom you abscribe to has stated that two things must be present inorder for ones deeds to be accepted, first it must be done for the sake of Allah and second it must be done with the itteebah of the Rasul saws anyway else ones deeds are not accepted. Do you agree with this? If so then how can you not see that

(Nov 12 '13 at 16:06) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

this ayah is talking about them not following what has been prescribed and thus innovating sonething into the teachings of Isa? They embarked on this bidah out of their own qiyas with no textual proof to support what they were doing. Allah test them as he tests us. The ones among them that did adhere to this hellenistic concept of monk living and continued to adhere to the ittebah of isa AS got their reward, we see today the after affect of the ones who where fasiq in implementing this bidah on Isa teachings this fact you can't deny. This bidah has lead the people into shirk, no good came

(Nov 12 '13 at 16:16) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

Out of it then or now So where is the benefit in following something not prescribed beloved? There is none at all But they didnot observe it with right observance, means they didnt use the ittebah of Isa though they did do it to please Allah, but two things must be present and if one isn't present then the deed is for naught. The due observance lies in the prescribed way nothing else. What is the correct way to observe an innovation I asked you this question before? The correct way to observe it is what those whom Allah rewarded did reject it for what it is a bidah. Remember you say that the

(Nov 12 '13 at 16:30) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

Scholars said that it is a such thing as a good bidah. And we both know that there are just as many scholars that don't feel this way. Also we both know that it was not done by the Rasul which the revelation came to. I choose to stand on the fact that it was not done and stay clear of it. You choose to adhere to it and present it as haqq. I seek refuge with Allah from that. We are not going to agree, so for the sake of brotherhood I end this discussion. For what is most important to me is that we remain muslim brothers, though we may differ, we cannot do so on that point. On the day inwhich

(Nov 12 '13 at 16:39) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

there is no doubt I beg Allah to bring us forward before him and inform us who is right or wrong and I pray eitherway we both be granted paradise, Salaam my beloved brother thank you for the discussion. May Allah reward you for your passion

(Nov 12 '13 at 16:43) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

wa 3alaikum el salaam.

(Nov 13 '13 at 09:29) inclined2truth inclined2truth's gravatar image

This is another

(Feb 14 at 15:21) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image

Reminding profits the believers. Salaam

(Mar 22 at 16:36) yaqin ♦ yaqin's gravatar image
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Asked: Nov 09 '13 at 10:17

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Last updated: Mar 22 at 16:36


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